What was your path into law and onto the bench?
Firstly, I am so honored to be here with you and to be asked to provide this interview.
The path one takes, I think, is an important one. And as I reviewed some of my esteemed jurist colleagues who have also been interviewed for this project, I see so many of them share the path that I came from. That is, from immigrant families. My (twin) sister and I are the firstborn Canadians in my family. My dad is from Pakistan and my mom was from Barbados. They came to Canada to pursue opportunities in education and employment. We settled in Winnipeg, Manitoba. My dad took basically the first well-paying job he could get, which was in the north of Manitoba - Flin Flon. You can imagine these two immigrants, who met in England, from hot weather countries, moving to a northern Manitoba mining town. That was the first opportunity for them and for their kids.
My parents worked hard to ensure that we had, and took advantage, of the opportunities they came to Canada for. And we did, because my parents made it happen. They always had high expectations for my sister and me. Not in a pressuring or negative way, but in a positive way. We had people, my parents, who believed in us, who thought we were capable of literally anything - even when I wasn’t! I look back and think, “What? How did I accomplish some of the things I did?” But when you are brought up in that environment and you are told often enough to believe in yourself, that you are capable and can achieve anything, you start believing it.
That is, quite simply, where it started – in Flin Flon, Manitoba, a mining town, with those beliefs instilled in me by my parents.
I moved away to go to university. I went to McGill in Montreal. That opened up my mind to a new language and culture, and the experience of living in a big city. From there, I went to the University of Victoria for law school. McGill gave me a commerce degree, and UVic gave me something else entirely. It exposed me to different thinkers: feminists, environmentalists, businesspeople. I grew so much through that. It wasn’t “us vs. them.” We all learned from each other. Then I moved to Vancouver, got a summer job at a firm, and was lucky enough to be hired. Again, I was surrounded by people who always supported me, encouraged me, believed in me, and never put limits on me.
So yes, do I work hard? Of course. But so many people do. My path was also paved by luck, and the huge advantage of having people who believed in me and people who never let me not believe in myself, despite what society might tell us.
What experience in your legal career best prepared you for work on the bench?
I will point to two things that prepared me. One was my experience practising commercial litigation at a medium sized Vancouver firm, where we had a lot of local and medium sized businesses as clients. They were all successful businesspeople – some very much so. Interestingly, most of the most financially successful ones were not “profit-at-all-costs” people. They were people who believed a good deal does not crush the other side. A good deal leaves something on the table because, well, karma: it’s just good to be good. They were generous, humane, empathetic, and yet financially successful.
The second was my volunteer work. I was encouraged to get involved with the Law Society, to do pro bono work, and to mentor younger women in the professions. You meet people, you hear their struggles. You see that not everyone who ends up before the discipline committee as the Law Society, for example, is a bad person. Some are sole practitioners just trying to pay the bills. Some are dealing with mental health or addiction issues. You hear from young people who work hard, but have to juggle their professional life with a busy home life.
What I learned is this: Not everything has to be black and white. People have backgrounds and struggles and issues that no one else knows about. Most people are doing the best they can. Not every position has to be the extreme one. There’s a middle ground, and you can find it without sacrificing your principles.
In that way, those two things, my clients who modelled fairness and decency and my volunteer work that exposed me to the complexity of people’s lives, really prepared me for this job.
What advice do you have for counsel who appear before you?
Guard your reputation carefully. Your reputation with the court. Your reputation with co-counsel. Your reputation with opposing counsel. Protect it. You do not have to blindly take instructions from your client. Yes, you are to be a zealous advocate, and yes, you are to take instructions. But you do not have to take an extreme position if it’s going to undermine your reputation or your credibility. You can and should advise your client: “We could take that position, but we might lose some credibility. It might not help our case.” Try to act within reason. Be reasonable. Talk to your client about being reasonable. Because at the end of the day, you, the lawyer, are the one who has to come back to court again. You are the one who will be dealing with the same lawyers in your practice area.
People remember how you conduct yourself. If you have a reputation for being difficult, unkind, or dishonest, it will make your job harder. The court will remember. Opposing counsel will remember. And when you need something—say, an extension or accommodation—it might not be granted because your reputation precedes you.
Another big piece of advice related to reputation is simple: Don’t make things up. If you don’t know the answer in court, that’s okay. Say so. Ask to stand down, ask for a few moments to check your notes or look something up. That is entirely acceptable and far more professional than fumbling or faking it or, worse, providing misinformation.
Also, be human. Understand that the people you are dealing with are human too. Even as a judge, when I hear counsel push back against someone who has a family trip or something important scheduled, I think, “Really? Haven’t you ever had to take your kids to Disneyland after promising them for six months?” Show some empathy.
For younger lawyers, get mentorship. Find someone—inside or outside your firm—who believes in you. Someone who has your back. It does not have to be a lifelong relationship. It could just be someone you go to when you need to talk through something. I had that. I had someone I could go to when I made mistakes. We’d sit down, talk through it, and figure it out. That kind of support is so important, especially in a job that’s already stressful enough.
And finally, a practical tip for appearing before judges: be prepared. We are a general court in British Columbia. Do not assume that we know your area of law. Do not assume we know your facts (we do not). Start from the base. Lay out your foundation clearly. And if the judge is familiar with the subject matter, we will let you know and you can build from there.
But do not rush. Go slow. Let us absorb the material. Remember, you have been living with this file for years. We have had it for a few hours, maybe a day. Help us understand.
So, my advice: protect your reputation, be kind, seek mentorship, and always be prepared.
What do you wish the public knew about the justice system?
Two things. One is macro and one I will call micro.
Macro: The “macro” is the role that lawyers play in the interests of justice and in maintaining the rule of law.
Every case is important. Everyone is before the court because their issue matters to them. They need resolution. They are probably spending money, and certainly time and emotional energy, on it. Sometimes people walk away with results that they are happy with, and sometimes they do not. But they are heard. Lawyers provide a voice for people who otherwise may not be heard. That is the rule of law.
Representing everyday people is important to preserving the rule of law, just as much as arguing the big constitutional case at the Supreme Court of Canada. Both support our democracy. I suspect many people take that for granted. And I think this is more for lawyers than the public, but I want lawyers to understand how important their work is, each and every case before the court, in defending the rule of law.
It is such an important role. I hope the public does not lose sight of that, for their individual cases, and for the bigger issue of democracy. I think we are recognizing the important role of lawyers in preserving rule of law and in defending our democracy a little more now, in our current environment. And I think that is an important thing to keep in mind.
Micro: I want the public to know how hardworking and committed each individual judge, certainly of my court, is. Every one of my colleagues care deeply about the matters before us. We care about the parties. We care that the right thing is done; that the right outcome is achieved. I have no doubt that not everyone agrees that the “right” outcome is achieved in every case. However, if litigants and counsel knew these individual judges as people, I think everyone, win or lose, would walk away knowing they got a fair hearing. That the person hearing their matter cared and is working hard to make sure the outcome is the just one.