Julia: Welcome to the first in a series of mental health episodes of The every lawyer taking a closer look at the national study on the psychological health determinants of legal professionals in Canada. Thank you for listening. My name is Julia [unintelligible 00:00:28].

The data analyzed in the report comes from a national survey on the wellness of legal professionals in Canada. More than 7300 legal professionals from all jurisdiction lawyers, Quebec notaries, Ontario paralegals, and articling students participated in the survey. Some key findings from this study include but are not limited to.

More than half of all respondents reported experiencing psychological distress and burnout. Those rates are even higher for professionals living with a disability. For articling students, lawyers aged between 26 and 35. Legal professionals with less than 10 years of experience, legal professionals identifying as members of LGBTQI2S plus community and women.

The billable hours model has a highly negative impact on mental health. But the emotional demand of client is the risk factor with the most significant impact. The key skills to build resilience and shielding legal professionals from stressors or a psychological detachment from work and the ability to set limits.

Our first guest is the honorable justice Michelle J. Hollins of Queen's bench of Alberta and past CB president. First, can you maybe give us a little bit of an idea/context of this report?

Michelle: Well, I will not be an expert on the report, I have received it and I've read it as much as I'm able to ingest that much information. But it was a report commissioned as I understand it jointly from the CBA, Canada Bar Association and the Federation of law societies of Canada. So, two organizations that have in my view, quite a vested interest in mental illness in the profession, both as a supporting organization to the profession, and as of course, the regulator, or the umbrella organization of our regulators.

I think what really commends this piece of work is the way that they went about it. So, this wasn't just the CBA, or the Federation, or anyone sort of asking 20 lawyers to rate their sadness on a scale of one to 10 or something. This was an expansive piece of work undertaken by researchers primarily at the University of Sherbrooke.

So, there are extensive bios at the beginning of the report. But I just have to say that my first reaction to it was really wow, what a lot of work extremely comprehensive. And something that is done, I think, somewhat uniquely, with, with a very scientific approach to it, and a very scientific bend to it.

So, we have actual definitions of things in the report and studying something like mental health in the legal profession is a kind of an amorphous concept. And so, I was just really, really impressed with how clear and yet how convincing from a scientific perspective the work was.

Julia: Yeah, me too. I'm a sensor, you know, the report is very comprehensive. And it shows that there is a significantly higher level of psychological distress among legal professionals, then experienced by the Canadian working population in general. So, if 57.5 percent compared to 40 percent, and a similar higher level of anxiety.

Are there any surprises that you had when you read that report?

Michelle: I don't actually, I think far more was the confirmation of things that we have heard primarily anecdotally, I guess, or we've experienced ourselves. Certainly, I have, about what is happening, and I guess why.

I mean, the surprise might be drawing such clear connections for the first time. About some of the things that we have suspected caused elevated rates of depression, anxiety and burnout, but seeing it in black and white was something.

Julia: Any top takeaways that you would like to really raise here in the podcasts?

Michelle: Yeah, I think the two things that really jumped out at me was, first of all, again how clearly the researchers were able to correlate the experience of anxiety, depression and burnout to particular factors. And of course, I would narrow in on what they call quantitative overload. And its relationship to the billable hour system, that at least in private practice, most firms still use.

I just think that even though it's shockingly black and white, even though it is completely unsurprising to see that correlation. We have talked about the billable hour system as feeding this monster for years, I saw in the report that the ABA, the American Bar Association, called the billable hour corrosive, 20 years ago, in 2002.

So, for 20 years, we have known that this is a significant contributing factor to the mental illness that is experienced by so many of our professionals. That was one thing. And the second thing I would say, that really jumped out at me and again, confirming something that I think most of us know intuitively.

But again, to see it in black and white is really helpful is the disproportionate impact of these things. And the disproportionate experience of depression, anxiety and burnout in identifiable groups, particularly young lawyers were the one that really stood out to me, but women, indigenous people of color, LGBTQ lawyers and disabled lawyers, you know, it makes perfect sense.

But again, I think there is just huge value in having those conclusions laid out the way they are.

Julia: Yeah, definitely. And I think you raised an important point here. What I really liked was the intersectional way that the report is made, you know. It doesn't only talk about like people it really desegregated data, which I think is very interesting. Also, as you say, we all know the profession, it's a problem. But sometimes we're just like, oh, yeah, well, we know, we know.

But now there's really statistics and data, which is very interesting. And do you think because you say it's been 20 years in 2002, we already knew that. Do you think it's something that the profession doesn't really want to hear? Is there anything that you think is very, you know, it stays like that, because people don't want to look at it? And do you think this report will be a way to maybe change that culture that we couldn't do 20 years ago?

Michelle: Perhaps, I mean, that's the hope. You know, I think, well, first of all, but in addition to the data, I do want to encourage everyone to read the testimonials that are included through this report. I just think they're so compelling.

You're not going to absorb everything that this report has to tell you if you don't listen to those individual voices. But I think the part of the story that the profession doesn't want to hear is that the solutions largely lay within the profession itself. There are absolutely things we can do, as individuals and I have talked about those, I've tried to practice those. And certainly, even in this report, there are recommendations, there are suggestions for how we can take better care of ourselves and be more proactive with our own mental health. And that is important.

But you know, young lawyers can't just change the billable hour system by themselves. That's going to lie with the organizations and the corporations and the private firms and the government departments that that have structured the work in such a way that quantitative overload is almost impossible to avoid.

Julia: Do you think there is any way? Do you think the legal profession is open to have this discussion with the young one, but the people who have been there for a long time now? And how do you think we can start that discussion? I think this report, as you see also the testimonies that we have in that is a good starting point. But then what will be you know kind of the next step to have an open conversation?

And do you think actually, my question is twofold. Firstly, do you think that the legal profession is open to have that conversation? And then on the other hand, where can we have that discussion? Where does it start do you think?

Michelle: Oh Julia, you know, it is a very difficult discussion. I mean, the way that things are structured now, generally, lawyers sell their time for money. That's what they do. And so, you have removed an awful lot of flexibility, when that is how you sort of have structured the basic exchange of services.

So, it's, it's very hard, I think, to change something that has been so ingrained and so well accepted for so long, and frankly, has worked for some people. But I do think-. I've thought a lot about where the pressure points may be. And I'm not sure.

I mean, one might be from the client perspective, we certainly have some examples of, if you look at investing, so not law, but you look at the investment community, and the idea that investors became more socially aware, more environmentally aware, and they began to put pressure on not just individual companies, but on funds and fund managers to take those things into account.

So, there might be some way in which clients could eventually bring some pressure to bear, I have a great deal of hope, if we can keep them in the profession, that young people, that younger lawyers, may also present that sort of a pressure point.

You know, when I was a younger lawyer, if you weren't willing to work 1800 hours a year or more, someone else was. And so that was, you know, there was no shortage of legal talent that was prepared to simply work under those conditions. And I think it looks to me like that is just no longer the case.

And so, I think that if firms run out of really good lawyers that are prepared to work in an unworkable environment, then that may be a pressure point as well. But it's a very difficult nut to crack, there's just no question about it. And I will, of course, because someone will be listening to me right now and saying, well, what do you know.

Of course, I left the profession, probably like being lawyer, five and a half years ago, and prior to that I was a partner in a law firm, and I depended on associates to work and to generate billable hours and to be able to bill those out to clients.

So, you know, I was certainly part of that system, even while I recognized that it was extremely harmful for a lot of people, at least over the over the long term. So now I'm out of the profession. I don't know if that makes it better or worse in terms of being able to look at legal organizations and departments and companies and firms and try to figure it out.

But I mean, you know, we're smart people. So, if pressure was brought to bear at the right place at the right time, I do think it's one of those, you know, I think you might have to create a situation where everyone jumps at the same time. So, I don't know exactly how that happens.

But I'm hoping that this piece of work, this report might certainly motivate some people that are in decision making positions to start to think more proactive.

Julia: But do you think that when we talk about mental health issues, and the mental and wellness challenges that are being met in the profession, do you feel that well, in general, the legal profession is aware of those challenges? But that there are just denying, or that they are just being like, well, you know, it's we want to make money, we have ambition? We are firms, so we're not going to talk about it unless, some people talked about it.

Or that maybe there is some, you know, good faith, and that maybe people don't know, and this report is actually now, now that it's out, we will see some changes.

Michelle: Yeah, no, I certainly hope so. I mean, I don't think we're at the point quite yet where there's no stigma attached, talking about your own mental illness. And I think that's partly because of the nature of the profession and the nature of what we do.

I mean, we present ourselves private practice, for example, I guess, in corporations and government as well, you present yourself to your client, as competent, and someone in whom they can repose their trust and their confidence. And, you know, certainly at the height of my depression, I was not a person in whom confidence could be placed. I was quite debilitated by my depression.

And so, I don't know that we've sort of figured out exactly how to open those doors completely. But I will say that over the 20 years or so that I've been, well I guess 15 years that I've been quite involved in mental health issues in the profession, that there's no question there is a vastly increased awareness of mental health problems.

And there is a vastly increased commitment, I think, to having open conversations about that. And there's a commitment on behalf of organizations and firms as well to doing something about it. But as I said, it sort of goes back to in fact, one of the testimonials that was in there really stuck out to me because it said, you know, there are no amount of massages that are going to fix this for me, if I can't find a way to do the work that you need done and do it in a way that allows me to still be healthy.

So, I think that's, you know, we just kind of keep butting up against the prof. But I'm still encouraged by that, because I think we are over the hump, where people were just like, no, this doesn't happen, or it happens to other people, or happens only to weak people, it's their own fault. And they should be able to, you know, sort of self-talk themselves out of it. And if they had more of a work ethic.

I mean, those attitudes may still I'm sure they do render, but they are not the main dialogue anymore. So, there's that.

Julia: And I'd like to thank you, for your years of service to the CBA, for joining us today I’ve already told you, but that's really an honor, also for sharing your story, and for inspiring others to do the same. Because I think that, as you say, to try to break that culture, and to talk more about it, you also need to have some leaders or some people who are ready and willing to talk about it to share their experience, and also to show that this is something common that happens, and that it's not, you know, it's not because of a bad working ethic.

Or it's just because well, it happens, and it happens way more than we think. And also, I would like to encourage our listeners to check conversations with the President, season four, episode four, long story short. You chose to speak publicly about your own mental health where so many people in the legal profession to keep their concerns to themselves, because they fear stigmatization.

Because maybe they don't even know what's happening to them, as well, because they fear that they will lose their job that they will not have this promotion they want to have or are, as you also mentioned, because the profession is all about being confident and being so nice and swift and everything.

So, would it be alright to ask about speaking out a little bit in this podcast as well?

Michelle: Certainly, absolutely. But I want to begin with a bit of a disclaimer, which is this. The depression that that knocked me off my horse in a big way happened about 15 years ago, and I won't go into the whole story, as you said, I do talk about it in my last interview with Steven Osteen, but it actually happened because my kids were leaving for university, which sounds like a really crazy reason to be thrown into the depths of depression, but it was really quite something.

And in fact, even now, you know, they've been gone, I've got grandkids for Peets sake. And even now, when I think back to that time, and, and the panicked feelings, it was just a complete terror of them leaving and without them.

It wasn't even being alone; it was being without them. And that was just extremely hard for me when I recovered from that with help, including some antidepressants and a lot of counseling. I was ready to talk about it. And that sort of happened around the time that I came into a CBA leadership role, and I really believed that the Canadian Bar Association was a perfect platform for a conversation like that.

And so, I did make that one of my priorities when I was the president over that year. But the disclaimer, which I'm getting around to, is that I was at that time, a partner in my law firm and worked in a small law firm. I had a lot of autonomy, in my practice. And I was very, very supported are my partners in this about a year and a half or two years that it took to go through this and get back on my feet.

And so that is a very enviable position, not the depression itself. But that support. I will also say, reading the report, that one of the things that really jumped out at me was the importance of a personal support network. You know, the idea that people with a spouse at home or with young children are actually less susceptible to depression and anxiety.

It just blows my mind because if you've spent a bunch of time working and taking care of small kids at the same time, it seems completely counterintuitive, but I think that is about the support that can make all the difference and certainly for me, it absolutely did.

That was what allowed me I think to get up to talk repeatedly about my experience, you know, in the hopes that people would identify with that and feel less like they had no options for how to deal with it.

Julia: I will say that I think we as a junior lawyer, it's always I thank you very much for coming forward and for sharing. Because I think that we don't hear enough of that. And when we are in law school, we don't hear at all about it. And then when we start our career, then we want to prove ourselves so much, and we never talk about it.

So, thank you very much. And I really encourage our listeners to go and listen to it.

Michelle: I'm very concerned actually about young lawyers. And, you know, particularly because the young lawyers I know are much more proactive about their mental health than my generation was. You know, my kids have taught me that. They go to therapists, like they go to the dentist more often.

But to know that younger lawyers are more embracing of the idea of personal health care/mental health care, it's still really discouraging to know that they are struggling so much.

Julia: Yeah, that's why I was a bit surprised with the report, because as you say, it's something that we talk way more now. But still, to see that it's still a thing. And it's still very, very problematic, I was surprised. And I think we really need to work on that.

And now I'd like to share some myth busters. So, some things you probably heard that I know I've heard, is that you never fully recover from a mental breakdown. People with mental health history are unpredictable and unreliable and unemployable.

You only need a therapist, because you don't have friends. It's all in your head, all expressions of a person very afraid of the things they are describing. What are some mental health and wellness myths, that you believe persists among legal professionals?

I mean, you did touch upon them. And I really like it, the fact that we need to, it's always, you know, lawyers, we have to be so reliable. Just that outfit, I mean, I'm fascinated about like, how we need to present ourselves, you know, to be like, so professional with a suit.

Are there some yeah, mental health and wellness myths that you think in the legal profession really persist?

Michelle: Well, I mean, I was, you know, the idea that people with mental health issues are unemployable. I think is a particularly disruptive, you know, the profession is replete with people like myself who practiced and, you know, I'm now on the bench. I just had an amazing and very fulfilling career, notwithstanding my situational depression.

But one of the things that I have learned through my experiences was meeting people who manage their own chronic mental health issues and do it very well and do it permanently. And so, I think, again, with that sort of increasing awareness of mental health as something that we all have to, you know, some it's better, some it's worse in some individuals, we have better days and worse days.

But I think that understanding that mental health, like any other health issue, can be treated and can be managed, and does not mean that the person is inherently unreliable or unemployable. I think that's really, really important.

On the other side, I think, you know, one of the things that happened to me, of course, was just that sort of self-talk about, well, you just get over it, snap out of it. And that was, you know, I really believed that I could just by force of will make myself feel better. Because, of course, there was nothing wrong with my life objectively.

Like, if you looked at my life, it was great, and it was great. But I didn't feel that way. And so, the dissonance between how I felt inside and how I knew my life looked objectively led me to just continually berate myself for being depressed, and to avoid, or at least, I guess, not realize that what I needed was outside help, I needed help.

And so that's the other myth that I encourage people all the time to just put aside is if you are feeling really critical levels of depression, anxiety, and burnout, it's not going to get better on its own. It's not something that you can ignore, and it will just get better over time. You need to take responsibility and try to reach out and that can be so so so hard to do.

It sounds easy, and it's not at all, but it is something that you need to do for you and for your loved ones. And if you're seeing someone that you think is in the throes of that, help them out, because it can be very hard, I actually only ended up sort of breaking the cycle of talking to myself, when a couple of people in my life came to me and said, you need some help. So, I encourage people to do that.

Julia: And maybe as a good practice, would you like to share how it was? How did you feel and how those people did it. Because I know that sometimes we might see colleagues or friends, but we don't necessarily know how to reach out to them without, you know, breaking this being disrespectful, or, you know, insinuating that they had a mental health issue, also we don't know what the good words would be.

Michelle: I'm not an expert on that kind of invention. Although, I can certainly point you, I think, to some listeners to some resources. My own situation was, it was actually a couple of CBA members I worked with who had got me involved in the CBA and our then executive director of our branch and both of them separately came to me and said, you know, I think you're not doing OK, I think you need some help.

And it sort of emphasizes that importance of having a support network like that, you know, you didn't have I don't think a lot of trouble in saying that to me, maybe they did, but I'm sure glad that they did. Because it really broke that mental ice for me about what on earth is wrong with me?

And so just that question, you know, how are you doing? It looks like you're maybe not doing so well. Do you think that you would benefit from talking to someone? There are lots of professionals available, that might be able to help you.

Even you know, I mean, if you have a conversation and even if it's not the right person, then you can try someone else. But, you know, I think just encouraging people to take that first step and offering to be there with them to support them, through the difficult process of getting started on some sort of a treatment plan can be really important.

But if it's a just a situation, and I get asked this all the time, you know, a younger lawyer who thinks that a senior more senior lawyer in their office is struggling, that can be I appreciate that's a different situation, or can be. And if you don't feel comfortable, you may need to raise it with someone else in the office an intermediary with whom you do feel comfortable.

And I will also say that the assistance programs in all the provinces that I am aware of have resources to help people with those difficult situations. So, as you said, you know, how to how to broach the subject of words to use, there's a lot of resources available to help you with that.

Julia: Thank you. And I think we will try to maybe share some in this podcast in the link so that people can have access to it. And what I hear also is the importance of taking care of each other, even the legal profession, even between colleagues, and even, you know, when you have some revelry with some of your colleagues is also to make sure that this doesn't go too far.

Which brings me maybe to one of my questions is, where a healthy rivalry that you might have in any firm, smaller one bigger one, stop being that healthy. What is this line? It depends on the person. What would you say in your experience?

Michelle: This one I'm not sure really sort of resonates with me a lot. I mean, honestly, my own experience with articling, and being a young lawyer, was that all of us were so overworked and so stressed about job insecurity, that we just clung to each other, like we were on a lifeboat. No one was trying to push anyone off the lifeboat, we were all just, you know, sort of bound together in our misery.

And I think there's still a fair bit of that for young lawyers. Not that I encouraged the misery part. But there still is, I think, you know, a lot of bonding that goes in young lawyers, and maybe less of the rivalry that we see on TV shows and movies. But, you know, there's no question you may not be fighting for a position. But as I said, a model that most lawyers work in now rewards long hours.

And so, you know, it does, I think, hat we need to continue to look out for each other and young lawyers need to look out for each other too. And that may even mean helping someone out if they are really, really in a bind. Even though you've got work of your own to do. I mean, those kinds of things are hard to do, but they're important because they're hard to do.

And when you give like that to other people, and you're willing to support them when they really need it. Then you got the network created that will help you when your turn comes around. And it almost always does.

Julia: At what time do you think people start to worry about their mental health hygiene? Do you think like some someone who never thought about this would start, it will be a good moment for them to think about it that that they will have this moment being like, OK, yeah, I need to take care of my mental health.

Do you think there's like a moment that it should happen? Maybe it's at university or in the firm? Yeah, before, you know, before it’s too late.

Michelle: I mean, I think the conversation around mental health hygiene has changed enormously. I think that people do talk regularly about what they're doing, to try to stay healthy, or feel better. And, you know, the more often we have those conversations, first of all, the more information that we exchanged, which is helpful.

I have colleagues here who will suggest things and I will try them, and vice versa. So, I do think that conversation is ongoing. And I do think that cuts across generational divides as well. But there is still certainly a phenomenon, I think if you have not ever had a problem yourself, then you may as I did believe that you are impervious to it.

And that was certainly me, I was the happiest person that I knew. I couldn't imagine myself being sad, much less dysfunctional for months to years on end. So, I think that's where we sort of circle back to the importance of continuing to share those stories, the difficult stories.

And when you have people in the profession that are able to say, you know, look, yeah, everything is great right now, and I don't want to be the, you know, the bearer of bad news, but, you know, your career will have a lot of ups and downs, and the more mentally prepared you are for the downs, the shorter those periods of times are going to be.

So, I think it's important, particularly for senior people you know, to put aside their, their pride. And, you know, for us to talk about how difficult things could be and how we managed with help find our way out of them, I think that could be really helpful.

Julia: I kind of have a question that popped to my mind when you were talking. But you know, when we talk about senior lawyers, and I don't want to be into this very binary way of thinking, but I kind of feel like it might be also more difficult sometimes for senior male lawyers who've been doing that for 50 years. And you're also a bit less comfortable with talking from the start up to talk about those things.

So, I'm wondering, you know, how to start a discussion between those seniors who are maybe even themselves comfortable to talk about it. And then the young, the junior ones, men and women who wants to talk about it and need to talk about it, and you need see their senior’s concern.

And I'm just thinking, you know, how to bridge this gap. And I think this report is a good start. But yeah.

Michelle: Every story is valuable, right? So, they are all valuable. There is something about seeing a very senior member of the profession, you know, share a very personal and difficult experience. I think is really quite transformative. I've appeared at least once, I guess, on that panel with the honorable justice Clemens Gaskell of the Supreme Court of Canada.

I mean, you talk about someone, you know, at the top of his game, being willing to talk about his mental health issues and how they manifest and what he did and how he has managed those issues over his career was really empowering.

And so, you know, providing forums for people of all levels of seniority of all description to talk about these things. I think the broader the spectrum of people prepared to say, I have had a mental illness. And this is what it looked like, you know, the more people are going to identify with that.

Julia: Totally, totally agree. Yeah. So maybe one last question for you, or two last questions, which are very interconnected. But what would you like to see more of, and what would you like to see less of?

Michelle: Well, what I would like to see more of is something I've already mentioned, which is the decision makers, so the leaders of the profession, the regulators of the profession, you know, representatives of the bench, representatives of the bar, representative of all of the marginalized groups, and minorities that this report has said are in particular of help, to have that conversation about, you know, if it's a straight line, from unrealistic expectations to depression anxiety and burnout.

Then, you know, we're not even in the diagnostic phase anymore, we should be moving to the solution space. So that's what I'd like to see more put very simplistically, I realized that.

And I guess less of. Well, I mean, I still see, you know, I still see in my current profession, a fair bit of reluctance, actually. So, I've talked a lot about how old there's a big conversation going on around mental health. And that's true. But, you know, in my own backyard, there's still a lot of work to be done.

So, I think, you know, eliminating that stigma should be a very achievable goal.

Julia: I love that. I mean, people don't see me but I'm nodding like crazy while you're talking. And I think well, I think we can thank the CBA and the university, Sherbrook University and the Federation of law societies for that report, because I kind of feel like you know, it's a good starting point, to have this discussion to have more testimonies of people sharing when they have lived and even sometimes when they were still living.

Thank you so much justice Hollins, it was such a pleasure to talk to you. And there's also a question that we have, sometimes usually is when the podcast is over. But we're always like, is there anything I didn't ask you that you would like to discuss? So, this time, while we are still recording, I would like to ask you if there is anything that I didn't ask that you would like to share with our listeners.

Michelle: Nothing I don't think that I intended to try to mention and haven't. But I do want to thank everyone associated with the report. I'm looking forward to hearing from them. And listening to a little bit more about the research side of it. But from my perspective, I also want to thank the Canadian Bar Association and the Federation of law societies of Canada.

This is really important work, and it doesn't happen in a vacuum. There has to be will, there has to be resourcing. And so, I'm very appreciative of those organizations putting that behind us.

Julia: Thank you very much. And I'm wishing you a good day.

Michelle: Thank you very much.

Julia: So, if you enjoyed this podcast, please rate it and share it with friends and colleagues and look out for them. Also, look out for mental health episodes of The every lawyer and the weeks and months. If you would like to comment on anything you've heard in this podcast, please contact us directly at cba.org