Julia: Hello and welcome to The Every Lawyer. I’m Julia Tétrault-Provencher.

VO: This is the Every Lawyer, presented by the Canadian Bar Association.

Julia: Introducing John Stefaniuk KC, CBA President for 2023, 2024.

In addition to a stellar career with Thompson Dorfman Sweatman LLP with a broad practice in the areas of environmental law, real estate and development law, natural resources and energy, as well as commercial law and municipal law, earning multiple awards and top listings both in Canada and globally, he has also chaired the Manitoba Criminal Code Review Board and volunteered with The Friends of the Canadian Museum of Human Rights.

His involvement with the CBA has also been quite extensive. President of the Manitoba Bar Association in 2005, 2006, and at the national level, Chair of the National Environmental Law section, Chair of the Judicial Issues Subcommittee, Chair of the Investments Steering Subcommittee, member of the Supreme Court Liaison Committee, Director of the Canadian Bar Insurance Association, Co-Chair of three national conferences and the local committee for the 2005 Canadian Legal Conference, and an active volunteer in the CBA International Initiatives/Global Affairs Canada, SIRD, the Supporting Inclusive Resource Development project in East Africa.

So here’s my conversation with CBA President, John Stefaniuk some three weeks into his tenure.

Can you tell us a bit more about yourself so that we can know who is the new CBA President? I mean wherever you grew up, always wanted to be a lawyer, you know, stuff like that?

John: Born and raised in Winnipeg. And when I grew up it was actually the small town called Transcona which was named after Lord Strathcona and the Trans-Continental Railway because the Canadian National Railway had its big maintenance shops there for Western Canada. So all the dads around tended to work for the CN Rail, as did my dad and his dad before them. So I’m a first generation Canadian on my father’s side.

My family came to Canada in the early 1930s, first my grandfather, then they saved money and sent for my dad and my grandmother. And they joined some other families here in Winnipeg.

Julia: So you were not – you’re not in a family of lawyers but you decided to become one.

John: I’m definitely not from a family of lawyers. In fact I think my parents used a lawyer twice in their lives, once to buy their house and once to make their wills. And they stayed in the same house for the rest of their lives. So I think that’s the only contact they had with lawyers. I’m the first in my family to go to university, followed by my brother shortly after. And so my dad quit school when he was 15 to go work at the railway and help support his family. My mom, she completed her high school education and went into the workforce after that. But that’s as far as they went in terms of formal education.

And you know, back in my dad’s time, there were still quotas at the professional faculties in Manitoba for Jews and for Ukrainians. And so because my family was of the Ukrainian origin, or even if we were to go to a professional faculty, you might have to face those restrictions.

Julia: So can I ask you why there were quotas?

John: Well because they didn’t want to have too many Jews or Ukrainians in the schools, compared to all the mostly Anglo-Saxon people who went to those faculties.

Julia: Okay so that was straight discrimination.

John: Well in those days, yes.

Julia: Yeah, okay, well, I didn’t know.

John: That’d be in the 40s, yep.

Julia: Okay, so you did your law degree and then you decided to become a lawyer, and what did you practice first?

John: Well, I started, I took a commerce degree as sort of a backup plan just in case I wasn’t able to get into law school. No one made me an offer I couldn’t refuse after commerce, so I continued into law school and visited the associate dean at the time who was Professor Braid, a great professor. And I sort of told him my marks and told him my LSAT score and he thought I wouldn’t have any trouble getting in.

So I continued into law school straight after getting my commerce degree. I am still in the same firm that I articled with, in fact I was a summer student here at Thompson Dorfman Sweatman LLP in Winnipeg. My practice started up in more corporate, commercial work, but I was mentored by a lawyer, Bob Edkins who’s still a partner of mine here, who had a pretty board practice.

So as he started changing his practice a little bit, I started doing more municipal planning work and then real estate and development work. And then one day one of the partners came to me with an environmental question. And environmental law was in its infancy then. And the way he defined it: go figure this out. A couple of weeks later I came back with a couple of binders of material and some answers, and that’s what started me in environmental law.

Julia: Nice. And we’re talking about like what year, because environmental law is very new. Even when I was doing my law degree, it was still very new.

John: This would be about 1989/90. And yeah, there wasn’t a lot of case law out there in Canada. I remember one case, the Pan Americana case out of Alberta which was about in terms of receiver’s liability for environmental contamination. And the rest of it we kind of had to figure out.

I started the environmental law practice even more after attending my first CBA National Conference, meeting in Toronto in 1994. I went to a business meeting there for the environmental law section. And the chair at the time, Darlene Pearson, said, “Oh we don’t have a chair in Manitoba. How’d you like to be the section chair in Manitoba?” And so that got me on as a national executive. And then I took executive positions with the section, became National Section Chair after some years, and developed a lot of contacts and connections and very good friends through the Environmental Law Section, now the National Environment, Energy and Resource Law Section for the CBA.

Julia: And you were President of the Manitoba Bar Association in 2005, 2006, Chair of the National Environmental Law Section, Chair of the Judicial Issues Subcommittee, and I can name all of them because there’s like a huge list that I have on my document. Very impressive I must say. Where you started with the CBA was with the environmental, but then I see that you also have been a bit all around. I’d like to know a bit about also your human rights law, because I’m a human rights lawyer and I started at CBA with [Whylit] Program, which is so great and opened so many doors.

But I’d like to hear a bit about what you did in human rights law, and I believe you’re still doing many things.

John: Well I’m glad to hear about your participation in the Whylit Program because I think that’s a great entry for young lawyers. And it’s certainly something that is attractive to many of our partner firms, and that they’re able to give their associates these opportunities to participate in something on the international level.

My own involvement on the human rights side is a little bit more tangential. I’ve done some volunteer work while I was on hiatus from CBA volunteer activities, as a volunteer with the Friends of the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, which was the fundraising arm for the Canadian Museum for Human Rights. So while there, the organization raised a little over $150 million towards the construction of the museum. So that was an important project and it was really exciting to be involved in that, because of course the museum itself is focused on human rights and it’s mission really is to make everyone who visits the museum and even those who aren’t able, to visit virtually and participate, to make them human rights champions wherever they are from.

Apart from that, I guess my participation was similar to yours because I was a volunteer for the CBA International Development Program. And the program is called SIRD for Supporting Inclusive Resources Development. The program ran for a little over five years because there was a bit of a COVID interruption, in East Africa in a partnership with the East African Law Societies and Global Affairs Canada. And the focus of that program was on providing support, awareness and law reform, especially in relation to women’s issues and community issues in an extractive resource development.

So in Uganda, Kenya and Tanzania, they’re at various stages in the development of their natural resource industries. And we’re talking about mining and more, so oil and gas development. And women in their communities were disproportionately affected. And so the idea there was to increase their capacity to train trainers, to increase awareness among the profession and with government officials, and also to assist in law reform and just bring in our own experiences in Canada and abroad to the law societies of Uganda, Kenya and Tanzania, and assisting their members in their development.

And of course we received just as much as we provided in terms of understanding their experiences and their legislative regimes and some of the community experiences, which were very moving and very interesting to hear about.

Julia: You did that as a volunteer, or was it like a pro bono? I’m always impressed with CBA, everything that you can do.

John: I was a volunteer with the CBA’s International Development Program, and that SIRD program, and so it allowed me to go to East Africa four times during my volunteer period. And each time for a week or two, or I guess three, going from country to country and running the program and doing presentations, it was definitely an experience that was very rewarding personally.

Julia: How did you manage to do that at the same time that you were – because I understand that you were full-time working also at your firm?

John: Yeah, well sleep is highly overrated.

Julia: I agree with that.

John: And but curiously, I mean with technology these days, for better or for worse, I think lawyers can do a lot of work from almost anywhere in the world. Even when I was on my own time there in tented safari camps, doing some R&R, you could get pretty decent internet connections. And so you might not be able to do video calls, but you could at least check in with the office, provide instructions, read documents and that sort of thing.

In fact this summer, I was able to do that on a Greek island cruise as well, stay connected to the office for better or worse.

Julia: Yeah, I was about to say, the right to disconnect as well though.

John: That’s right.

Julia: But that’s very, very inspiring, and thank you also for sharing. And I understand that you did all that prior to being the CBA President. But now you are the CBA President. So I would like also to know a bit how does it feel? How long have you been now? It’s quite new, right?

John: I’ve been CBA President since September 1.

Julia: That’s it, congratulations!

John: This is day 22 of being CBA President.

Julia: Three weeks now.

John: And yeah, I’m still standing. I’ve had the opportunity to greet some people here in Winnipeg because we had our board meetings here first week of September, and a very nice chain of office reception where past President Steeves Bujold passed on the chain of office to me. It was nice to have the ability to see many good friends from around the country, and from here, and to give a little bit of an address about my priorities for the year. And then we went to board meeting the rest of the week.

Julia: I don’t know how it works but do you need to take some moments off from your current job or like is it something that you do in parallel?

John: Well I’m trying to do it in parallel. I have some examples of other presidents who’ve done the same thing and so we’ll see how it goes. It’s fairly new. I was traveling through Atlantic Canada over the last week and a half. And you know, I was able to keep on top of things. I had a few workdays thrown in with some CBA days, and then a couple of days on my own to tour around Newfoundland a little bit. So, so far, the balance has been working out nicely.

Julia: Yeah, I’m glad to hear that. And can you tell us a bit about like why did you decide to run for president and what do you want to do for CBA and with CBA?

John: Wasn’t planning to run as President of the CBA. I did want to get back involved so I got back on the national board of directors which was a good experience. And like so many other things that I’ve become involved with with the CBA, someone, or more than one person sort of tapped me on the shoulder and said, “Have you thought about this?” or, “I think you’d be good at this.”

So once I put my name in, I was going to do it and do it seriously and here I am. As far as my presidential priorities for the year, every year, the CBA President has to identify one or a few presidential priorities. But my first priority is the protection and promotion of the rule of law at home and abroad, and particularly, where we see erosion around the world, but also in our own country on issues like judicial independence, on access to justice, on equal treatment under the law, as well as what we see in other jurisdictions around the world where we can partner with other bar associations. I think it’s important that the CBA is proactive, and where required, quickly reactive to these issues as they come up, especially here in Canada.

Rule of law is of fundamental importance to our democratic system of government. And without that, our system of government is in trouble.

The second priority is to ensure that the Canadian Bar Association is an inclusive association. We have a number of associations and micro-associations and affinity associations that started up in the last number of years. And you know, there’s even a Ukrainian Canadian Bar Association. There are South-Asian bar associations, indigenous bar associations, black lawyer associations.

I want to make sure that all groups are supported by the CBA. We’re not in competition, but we also want to show members of those groups that the CBA has something to offer for them. And we want to make sure that any barriers to entry, whether they’re real or perceived, are eliminated or reduced as much as possible, so that everyone sees a place for themselves in the Canadian Bar Association.

The third priority I think might be best described as giving back. Sir Francis Bacon wrote many years ago on his introduction to the Treatise of the Common Laws of England – and I’ll summarize it – it basically said that it’s incumbent on every professional to be an ornament unto their profession. So that’s done by practicing well and also giving back to the profession, to the community. And I think we need to do a little bit better job. What I’ll try to do this year is showcasing members of the profession who do just that, who give back to the profession or who give back to their local communities in all kinds of ways, whether that’s by teaching or academic research, or whether it’s by coaching their local ringette or hockey team or soccer team. All of that’s important.

Lawyers are in tremendous demand as volunteers. And by celebrating those that are able to do this and have had some success and achievement in doing this, to show them as examples to others so that they too can become involved and get back to the profession and their communities.

So those are the three priorities in a nutshell.

Julia: Thank you. And I think you kind of hit – because we’ve been doing a lot of interviews for the Touchstone Report because it’s the 30^th anniversary of the Touchstone Report on the place of women in the law, and I feel like two of the priorities that you’re talking about became so often women saying first inclusion, feeling that some of the associations that you name, they were also named by some of the women, saying how useful they were, how important they were for them to feel included, to feel that they could share also their story and if they face discrimination, that they were supported. So I’m very glad to know that it’s also one of your priorities as president, so continue this inclusion.

And also I would say this giving back, this mentorship is so important, and that came often from the women as well, younger ones, the juniors, saying, you know, it’s so important for them to have those mentors that they can look up to, and they can ask for advice. I think you’re touching it is really right on. So thank you very much.

And why did you come with those priorities? Was it because of your work, you talked with some people before that or it’s just because you have a lot of experience or it has always been important for you?

John: I think those are things that have always been important for me but as I’ve continued to practice law and just to keep in touch with the rest of the world, those things are issues that resurface for me.

I come from a family who were always involved with the community, and you know, by example, taught the importance of giving back in various different ways, whether it’s my grandparents’ involvement in actually physically building and working with their church, or my parents’ involved in community service clubs or sporting organizations. I’d go out at late night in the winter with my dad and flood the community club hockey rink and things like that. So you learn by example. Or set up for the Kinsman Club bingo in the local hall.

My mother would melt paraffin to make these wax candles that the connect club would sell at Christmastime. Or I’d go with my dad to the – out in the cold in the winter – one of their fundraisers at the time was selling mandarin oranges in old wooden boxes and delivering them before Christmas. So you know, you learn by example and just by seeing that.

And so I’ve always thought it was important to give back to the community. And rule of law, of course is something you learn about and you become more familiar with. I’ve had the pleasure of hearing any number of people speak on the issue whether it’s former Supreme Court of Canada justices like former Chief Justice McLachlin or Justice Rosalie Abella, former Justice Minister Irwin Cotler. I mean they all spoke very eloquently and passionately on issues of rule of law and the importance of rule of law.

And some of that eventually sunk through. In fact it was hearing Irwin Cotler speak at an event where it became clear to me that many of our elected officials and those who seek to be elected don’t recognize that in 1982, Canada became a constitutional democracy and is no longer a parliamentary democracy, and that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was the supreme document and that actions by government had to fall within the perimeters of the charter, and the charter and the courts are there to protect individuals from the incursion of government.

So those sorts of concepts are very important to the way our society functions, that the separation of state, the executive, judicial and legislative branches of the government, that’s important to preserving our institutions and our systems of government and democracy. And whether it’s because we don’t teach social studies or Canadian history in our schools in the same way, it’s not something that’s a common understanding among all people in Canada. I think we should have those basic understandings. You can agree or disagree with them but at least you understand what the concepts are. And I think that would go a long way to addressing some of the issues we see before us these days.

Julia: Yeah, and do you feel like, you know, lawyers might, because of what we know and because of the privilege that we have, to have this knowledge about the law, we kind of act like watchdogs – that’s the word in English, right – of the rule of law, making sure it’s preserved and respected.

John: Yeah, in some ways we’re like the guardians of the galaxy.

Julia: Guardians, exactly. That makes more sense.

John: Part one anyway, maybe not two or three. So in that respect, sure, lawyers are in a bit of a privileged position in many ways, partly because of their training, sometimes because of the respect they’re accorded by members of society generally. And many of us are able, earn a very comfortable living doing what we do, so we have a special responsibility to give back, to share our insights and knowledge and to transfer some of that and to better explain some of the issues that we see around us. I think that’s half the battle, especially in today’s world where we have very segmented sources of information.

You know, growing up, there were three channels on television, four channels including one Francophone station in Manitoba. And so everyone consumed pretty much the same media. Saturday night was Hockey Night in Canada for pretty much every house. And that’s not the case anymore.

And even in terms of consumption of music or news, you can select your news and information sources based on ones that you feel comfortable with or that support your belief system. And you can be somewhat insulated from other points of view. I think that it’s very important that we’re able to help break down barriers and explain the importance of these issues in a way that’s easily understandable.

I know that the American Bar Association has an initiative that they’re pushing for civic education again in elementary schools as a means of helping people to understand and identify why the rule of law is important in democratic countries.

Julia: That’s nice. I didn’t know that. Is that the plan for the CBA?

John: Well I don’t know. The American Bar Association of course is at least ten times as large as the CBA.

Julia: True.

John: Canada has roughly the same number of lawyers as the State of California. And so it’s a different scale. But you know, we can do things in our own way, even things like Law Day celebrations and moot courts where kids participate in, or classroom visits, or any of those sorts of things can go a long way in bringing these stories forward and advancing education.

Julia: Talking about the rule of law, also because of your family, because I know you’re also involved, and maybe I’d like to know a bit what is being done with the CBA or even by you in the community to support Canadian Ukrainians or Ukrainians who are coming here. I’m going to Ukraine in like 15 days, in Kiev, working on conflicted sexual violence over there. And maybe I’d just like to know your thoughts about what’s happening in Ukraine since the full-scale invasion, but also before, in 2014, 2015.

John: Well Ukraine is an area that is emblematic of what happens when there’s a deterioration of the rule of law at the international level. You’ve got a country of 40,000,000+ people who have voluntarily surrendered their nuclear weapons when they became an independent nation outside of the Soviet Bloc on the assurance that their territorial integrity would be respected and maintained.

And then you have a totalitarian regime led by a megalomaniac with imperial ambitions to restore an empire that never was, crossing their border and inflicting horrible, horrible human and physical losses against a fledgling democracy. And this is completely unacceptable in a world like today, and we stand steadfast with our brothers and sisters in the Ukrainian Bar Association. We have contact with them. We support them of course in principle at the international level.

I know many law firms in Canada have reached out and employed Ukrainian lawyers and Ukrainian paralegals and others who have had to leave the country or working from abroad outside of Ukraine. It’s a global catastrophe. And the Canadian Bar Association can do what it can, but our role is necessarily a limited one. We’re member-driven and a volunteer-based organization, but we can certainly lend our voice and the energies of our members in fighting the good fight and hopefully leading this to a peaceful and satisfactory resolution.

We have to stay abreast of things that are going on throughout the world. And we’re often called upon to comment on issues by bar associations and lawyers’ associations in those countries. Recently, we’ve been made aware of situations in Tanzania where lawyers have been arrested for criticizing a government transaction with a foreign government for the management of Tanzania’s ports. We’ve been speaking up on issues where lawyers from Muslim minorities in Pakistan have been denied bar association membership or whose ability to practice is threatened because of their religious beliefs.

And those are only small examples of the kinds of things that are brought to our attention and where we do as best we can to lend our support.

Julia: Yeah, I thought also with Afghanistan when it happened, the Canadian Bar Association was reactive as well. Some lawyers were very proactive so it’s, I think for me, very inspiring and it’s very inspiring to be part of this association. And I think we can all be very proud of this.

And talking about that also, because I’m always impressed with my friends. Some of my friends are lawyers as well. They’re always like, “What does the CBA think about this thing or this very political or this legal aspect that has been – everyone’s talking about?” And they’re always like, “People really look up to the CBA and what is the position of the CBA,” because I think it’s often really well-founded and really respected also in the community, in the legal community. And I think that’s also very important.

John: Well it’s important for the CBA to be seen as a supporter of the rule of law in the systems of justice. It’s also important for the CBA to be seen as a supporter of our members, lawyers, academic, law students, notaries, and their individual interests. So issues like protection of [unintelligible 00:30:03] claimed privilege, privacy issues, law reform and modernization, legal education, professional development, all these things are important to CBA and its members.

And for some people, we have to make a value proposition for our membership. Membership in the CBA is voluntary for most of our members. And we have to make sure that they receive the benefits that justify their membership. And for some it’s going to be the things we do internationally. For others it’s going to be the things we do at the branch level in terms of professional development, social activities for those who participate. For some members it would maybe be the discounts they’re able to receive on products that they already enjoy or are planning to enjoy.

So for everyone it’s a little bit different. For many it’s a mix of things. And that is something we’re planning to continue to deliver to our members.

Julia: And I also had a question, because I always find the CBA, well it’s very progressive. Well from now – I mean I’ve been to Whylit, since I joined Whylit in 2018 I think. And that was the first time I encountered CBA and the work of the CBA. And what I love is that I see that it often reflects my values, as a lawyer, as a woman as well. And I was wondering if it has always been like that, if the CBA has always been this very progressive association.

John: Well it’s come a long way since the Touchstone Report which was, you know, it issued just a short while before I started my involvement with the CBA. And since that time, just like Canadian society as a whole, I think there have been tremendous strides made in the advancement for rights for women, for minority groups, for those who have seen discrimination. Things have changed remarkably.

This may not be the best example, but you know, when I was looking for an articling position in 1988, I actually had a former school guidance counsellor phone me up and tell me that, “You know John, the firm that you’re looking at going with,” which is the firm I’m at still, “That’s no place for a Ukrainian kid like you. That’s a wasp firm. There’s no place for you in that firm.” And that was in the late 80s already. And you would normally think of me as an old white guy now. I was a young white guy then. But you know, even just based on ethnicity, they were still those layers of discrimination that were still somewhat ingrained or at least perceived in the system.

So we’ve come a long, long way from that. I look at the diversity among even our associates at my firm, and it’s quite remarkable in terms of race, ethnicity, gender, gender identify, gender preference. You know, all those issues are reflected among our younger lawyers and students here. And each of these people are working their way through the system and soon will become the mid-level people, and then the senior people.

There will always be issues. But some of the issues that people have worked so hard to identify and address over the years are now becoming much, much less prominent than they once were, and all for the better. Canada’s a pluralistic society. We have to make sure we recognize the broadest possible diversity in terms of backgrounds and belief systems and we continue to evolve in that direction.

Julia: I would have like three last questions for you because you are quite a, I would say a human rights champion, but just a champion of the CBA, and everything that you’ve done is very impressive. But I’d like to know what motivates you to do all that work?

John: Well I find my day job really interesting and challenging and there’s usually something different every day. And I love dealing with some of the esoteric areas in the law and questions that come up. In the volunteer work, it’s different than my day job often. I’ve done different things. I’ve been chair of our criminal code review board in Manitoba, which was quite an appointment. So it was paid, but you would call it almost volunteer.

I’ve been involved in a number of different things with the Canadian Bar Association. And it’s always been very rewarding for me. I’ve always learned new things. It’s helped me professionally. It’s helped me develop my professional skills, my knowledge, especially interacting with other members in the same practice areas from across the country. It’s allowed me to make tremendous friends from across the country.

I tell my young associates that my membership in the Canadian Bar Association, my involvement, puts me in a place where I can go to most major cities in the country and there’s someone I can have lunch with or go for a coffee with, and have a great conversation. And many of these people have become longtime friends over the years as well.

And in terms of my practice, it’s helped me develop a network of clients and referral sources and expertise, and people to whom I can refer clients to in other jurisdictions, that I wouldn’t have had otherwise. So it’s helped me tremendously in terms of developing a practice too.

And the intrinsic rewards I’ve obtained from my volunteering with the bar association, they have always been much greater than the effort I’ve put into them and the work that I’ve put into them. So I’ve always come away feeling better about what I’ve done, feeling better about myself, having learned something and hopefully having contributed something. And I have that shared experience with many, many other people who have been CBA volunteers. Many of us call ourselves CBA lifers. I keep saying I’m looking for a 12-step program for volunteers. But I haven’t found it yet.

Julia: I mean, to listen to you, I think that all of us will be trying to find where they want to volunteer at the CBA because it’s very – it just gives us, you know, the will to do it, because it seems to be so rewarding. I know volunteering is very rewarding, but if anyone was doubting, now, I think they would all know it’s worth it. And also I think with the CBA, what is nice is that there are so many topics and issues. And you know, you just mentioned you’ve done an intern association, you talked about protecting East Africa, but you also did the judicial issues. I think you can go really find a topic that interests you and you can dig deeper into that and really commit to it and do some volunteer work and maybe become a CBA lifer. How do you call it?

John: Yeah, CBA lifer. I mean the first point of contact for many people when they become CBA volunteers are the branches. So every province and territory has its own branch and branch structure. And usually they’re always looking for volunteers on a whole variety of issues or projects. And the second most frequent gateway into the CBA is through sections. So practice areas, gender diversity section or women’s forum, groups like that are opportunities for people to get involved and participate in areas of professional interest too.

And you’re never too junior to start participating, nor are you ever too senior in your career to be able to participate, and there’s always a place for everyone.

Julia: And I think the human being part is very important. We’ve done a lot of podcasts now with different CBA members and they’ve all been awesome, and they’ve all said, “I met this CBA person,” and everybody just seems so great and very inspiring and motivated and passionate also. So I mean, big fan here of the CBA.

So my last question for you will be just what do you find, if you find anything difficult, like is there anything that doesn’t come naturally to you, and if so, what do you do with it?

John: I’ve got terrible clerical skills because I think I’m a little -

Julia: Ah!

John: So any aptitude test I had in junior high told me to stay away from anything clerical or anything like that because I’m terrible at that sort of thing. So I’ve got a fantastic assistant that helps me with, you know, make sure I’ve got things proofread properly and everything else.

In terms of difficulty, I mean sometimes it’s difficult to maintain balance but I think we make our choices as to how we focus our energies and making time to make sure that there’s some self-care involved and there’s some personal time and relaxation time. I’ve been fortunate enough over the years that I’ve often been able to blend some of these things together, you know, combine some travel with some professional activities or volunteer activities or make friends and visit them at different kinds of events and conferences. It’s been a very good ride that way.

We are in a challenging profession at times. There’s no doubt about that. Many of us don’t have occupations or careers that are nine to five. And adding to that, any volunteer or other commitments or family commitments, and if we have health or mental health or other issues that require attention, sometimes it is difficult. So it’s important for us to all have supports as well. And whether they’re supports through our law societies because there are supports through law societies, through the CBA, I think we can help each other out to find the right balance and to get us over the humps and hurdles that we have to deal with.

Julia: And take care of each other, yeah.

John: Absolutely.

Julia: I think that was a good ending for that. And I don’t know if you wanted to add anything that I haven’t asked you that you would like to add. If so, it’s your time now. Otherwise, I thank you very much Mr. Stefaniuk. It was very interesting.

John: No, just thank you very much, Julia. And I appreciate the opportunity. And I hope the editing goes well and everything else.

VO: This is The Every Lawyer, presented by the Canadian Bar Association.

Julia: That was my conversation with CBA President John Stefaniuk KC. Thank you so much for listening.

If you haven’t already done so, please subscribe. And if I’m correct and we have motivated you to get involved, please visit cba.org and just click on everything, or simply write to us directly at podcast@cba.org and have a great day.